Romance Recs

Interview with author Penn Cole

• Jordan & Devonnie & Penn Cole • Season 2 • Episode 14

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Devonnie and Jordan chat with New York Times & USA Today Bestselling author of The Kindred's Curse Saga, Penn Cole. 

Penn shares her journey of landing her dream trad deal, being a fantasy romance fan, attempts to convert us to team Henri (iykyk), and she shares an EXCLUSIVE QUOTE FROM BURN 😱. It’s definitely one that will send you into a theory spiral!

If you haven’t caught up on her series yet, you can still listen. Just skip the chapters marked *spoilers* to avoid any major spoilers.


You can find Penn Cole at:

https://www.penncole.com/

https://www.instagram.com/AuthorPennCole

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Devonnie:

Welcome to Romance Wrecks, where book besties explore the world of romance novels and encourage you to expand your TBR. Join us as we dive into the hottest releases and hidden gems of the genre. You can find us on Instagram and threads at romancewreckspod. Hi guys! I'm Dev.

Jordan:

Heh heh heh.

Devonnie:

I, uh, you know, okay. Um, I am currently reading Spiral by Bal Cabra. Now it is an ARC, but I know y'all like to tussle, don't worry. It will be out and available on January 28th.

Jordan:

I'm Jordan. I am re listening to Heat of the Everflame by Penn Cole. Just getting in the mood. Just getting in the mood. And, and I am reading Scandal by Nevessa Allen.

Penn Cole:

Ooh, I want to read,

Devonnie:

I'm loving the Vessa Allen. And who, pray tell, do we have in studio with us today?

Penn Cole:

It's me. I'm Penn Cole, author of Heat of the Everflame and Spark of the Everflame and Glow of the Everflame. And someday Burn of the Everflame.

Devonnie:

Thank you. Yes.

Penn Cole:

Yeah.

Jordan:

Yes.

Penn Cole:

And, um, I am reading, I'm switching between two books right now. I'm reading, um, Book of Azrael by Amber V. Nicole, who I love so much. I adore her. I know. I know. Diana is queen,

Devonnie:

Yeah.

Penn Cole:

Um, and I just paused to read my friend Helen Schoyer's book that's coming out, Iron and Embers, which is a spinoff of her very popular series, Legends of Bismarck. And I think it's also out on January 28th. So, um, check it out. Yes.

Devonnie:

Yeah. January 28th is definitely when a lot of books are coming out. So that's exciting. I'm excited to see what else.

Jordan:

A lot of good things to start out the year.

Devonnie:

Exactly. Now I do want to kick us off with a quote here and I may have done some homework. I didn't need to do too much because honestly, everything this man says. It's like golden to me and do you know what I'm going to say?

Penn Cole:

I have a feeling.

Devonnie:

Yeah, here, here is a quote from heat of the ever flame by my book, boyfriend, a book husband. At this point, y'all could keep the boyfriend title because that's my man, my man, my man. But he says desire. He gave a dark throaty laugh. Desire is a pathetic word for what I feel for you. I require you, I am sustained by you. You are the flame that fuels my fire. Don't you dare question that. Not for a second. I mean,

Jordan:

I

Penn Cole:

That's my boy.

Jordan:

Oh!

Devonnie:

everything he says is so good, but honestly it's so hard to pick from my favorite Luther quote, but I wanted to share that one specifically because the, I require you, I am sustained by you.

Jordan:

Yeah. That.

Penn Cole:

I mean, our man can give a speech. What can I say?

Jordan:

He can.

Devonnie:

Yeah, yeah. And you built him that way. That's the best part. Like, you built him to be able to say these things. So yeah, that's my quote for today. I know, right? I'm bothered.

Jordan:

Yeah. It was hard not to go with a Luther quote. To be honest. But I was like, I gotta give some More credit to Diem because I just I don't feel like she gets enough. So yeah, yes Oh, trust me. We'll get into the things we see happening about her.

Penn Cole:

Oh no. Oh no.

Jordan:

No, all good from us. All

Penn Cole:

Okay, good. Okay, good.

Jordan:

It's from Heat of the Everflame. I knew men like him. I'd outsmarted and outmatched them all my life. They didn't trifle with silly things like logic or reason. They were bullies, and bullies only responded to fear.

Devonnie:

Yes, we love a badass

Jordan:

Yes!

Penn Cole:

Yes. Tell them, girl.

Jordan:

I know!

Devonnie:

exactly. Yeah.

Jordan:

thought it was very poignant, too. I just, I feel like we need this quote right now.

Devonnie:

Yeah, yeah. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yes have you got? Do you have a quote for us

Penn Cole:

Well, I thought I would share a quote from Burn, actually. I

Devonnie:

Penn stop!

Penn Cole:

you might enjoy that. Something no one has seen at all. No one has seen. Um, I'm going to give you zero context for this quote, uh, and let you all just spiral. Just my favorite

Devonnie:

Thank you so much.

Penn Cole:

Okay. It's a little bit of a strange quote. Here goes. Balance is needed, balance is offered, balance is owed. In sacred soil, three hearts entwined must be shattered and sowed. One life taken, one life given, one life a burden bestowed.

Jordan:

oh, oh Oh ideas Scary ideas.

Penn Cole:

Who knows?

Jordan:

I'm,

Devonnie:

brain feels like a bag of cats right now. I'm

Jordan:

I have sweaty palms. Things just like, oh,

Devonnie:

thing about a riddle is I want to know one who's the speaker. I want to know who's saying it. I want to know who's this. Penn's like, uh, I know. Can't tell ya.

Penn Cole:

And, and as, and as our girl Ursel says, our, our Umbrose queen, prophecies can have many meanings,

Jordan:

Mm

Penn Cole:

many meanings.

Devonnie:

I hate this for

Jordan:

That's where I am. That's where I am right now

Penn Cole:

You're welcome.

Devonnie:

Yeah

Jordan:

we're in Umbros.

Penn Cole:

I love her. That's my

Devonnie:

Oh my gosh. Well, I know all of our listeners are probably spiraling with us. So

Penn Cole:

girl.

Devonnie:

appreciate it so much

Jordan:

I can't wait to re listen to that and really digest it

Devonnie:

You're over analyzing that yeah, yeah Yeah, yeah. Yeah All right, cool. So now that we have that done Captivating quote

Penn Cole:

No,

Jordan:

thank

Devonnie:

way. Thank you. I'm

Penn Cole:

be easy to focus for the rest of the podcast, right?

Devonnie:

right. I we're definitely gonna fly through this. I'm not gonna be thinking about it in the back of my mind at all Um, but yeah with I know jordan and I picked quotes from heat and we've got a re release coming up. But yeah, why don't you tell us a little bit about the re releases and maybe any other announcements that You'd like to mention right now before we get into the nitty gritty

Penn Cole:

Well, a lot is going on a lot. Um, the series was picked up, so it was originally self published. It was picked up by Atrio, which is an imprint of Simon Schuster, for the print editions, and so those are slowly re releasing. Spark and Glow are already out. Heat re releases in print on March 11th, very, very soon. Super excited about that. It's got a, um, exclusive POV bonus chapter from Luther, uh, that's So great. It's, um, his, it's tied to the moment they have in the inn, in Umbrusque, that's all I'll say. Okay? Which

Devonnie:

Oh,

Penn Cole:

a moment, right?

Devonnie:

yes!

Jordan:

Oh!

Penn Cole:

there is a pre order incentive if you pre order the new edition of Heat. You can get another bonus chapter from Taryn's point of view. Um, a little special moment between him and Zolerick, our baby boy who we love. I know. I'm so excited about that one. Uh, and then, and then I have a ton of tours and events going on this year. I have a full list of them on my website, but the one's coming up soonest. I have a German tour next week, and then I'll be along the West coast of the U. S. In February, Seattle, Portland, San Diego, LA, and Romantici BookCon. So, so, so excited about that. I'll be at a PolyCon in DC in April. I'll be at Villains and Vixens in Dallas in September. I'll be at Rare London in July. And we are working on a U. S. and Canada tour over the summer. So hopefully we'll hit some more spots that we haven't been able to hit.

Devonnie:

Yes, we love that. Oh, we're

Jordan:

Congratulations.

Devonnie:

Yeah.

Jordan:

so busy and exciting.

Penn Cole:

Exciting.

Jordan:

well earned. and we'll see you in Seattle.

Devonnie:

We will. We'll be there. We will be there.

Penn Cole:

We can reassess the quote then. Come back to me with your theories,

Jordan:

Yes.

Devonnie:

have to tussle. If you don't tell me who it's from. Yeah.

Jordan:

Oh, that's so fun. Just watching your journey from like, when I started watching yours, it's been so fun and just really inspiring to watch. It's,

Devonnie:

Yeah.

Jordan:

so great.

Devonnie:

Yeah. I love that.

Penn Cole:

and wild and wonderful.

Devonnie:

Yeah, I'm sure it definitely comes with the ups and downs, but I just, I don't know. There's something about when I first started interacting with you as like, you know, a reader who is just loving your work. And I just, you just had this vibe. I was like, Ooh, I like it. I like it. And you're just so engaging with your community and the readers. And I feel like that's what like really pulled me into you. Like that was my buy in to you as an author, even though I'd already like, okay, I'd read the series. I was eating it up. I needed more, you know, um, Cool. Was waiting for the last one. But like, to also feel that buy in with you and want to like, see you do well and want to watch you grow and like, seeing your career just move and spread like wildfire. I think that's, that's just been like, so nice because I feel like you deserve it. I feel like we've been besties for so long,

Penn Cole:

We totally have. We

Devonnie:

Yeah, yeah. And I'm just cheering my bestie go bestie. Yeah, it's just been really nice to watch, to watch everything take off. And, um, yeah. And, and you, I mean, you killed it. The story,

Penn Cole:

Thank

Devonnie:

the story so far is actually amazing. It's great reading. So that just makes it super easy. And like. I mean, of course, we all want to know like what inspired the idea for this story for you. Like, is this a situation where you were like, one day you woke up, you were like, I have the whole thing. Or have you been working on this for years? Like, how did, how did it come about?

Penn Cole:

I always knew I wanted to write a romance for, I mean, years and years and years, but I didn't really have a clear vision of what I wanted to write. I kind of knew some themes that I wanted to touch on and, um, some ideas for characters or certain little plot twists, you know, little bits here and there. But it wasn't until, yeah, it, it, it, it wasn't until, um, actually during the pandemic when I was unemployed because I had moved overseas and I had to leave my job as a result and I just was not able to find a job here in France that I really started saying, okay, maybe this is the time for me to write. If I did, what? What I write and that's when I, I sat down and I had this tiny, no pun intended spark of an idea. And I won't, I don't know if everyone who is listening has read the book. So I will, I don't want to give any spoilers, but if you have, Finished spark. The thing that happens at the very end, like the last line of spark was kind of the nugget off of which it was all built. Cause I started thinking about, okay, if this thing happens, what's the fallout from that, um, what does a world look like where something like this could happen and how does that change how people interact and how, um, you know, wealth is distributed and, and how people treat people with power, like, If this is a possibility in the world, what are the sociological consequences of that? So that was a really interesting thread for me to pull on. And I also, you know, in part because of everything that was going on in the world, I had, um, you know, themes of injustice and, colonization and inequality were really heavy on my heart. And I wanted to, um, tackle those in a way that was sort of. Separated from the baggage people bring in from their everyday lives, where they, they have cemented themselves in a particular position and nothing is going to push them out of that position, you know, but when you come into fantasy, that's one of the best parts about fantasy is people can very easily find themselves rooting for somebody in a fantasy story that they wouldn't. in real life. And I, I was kind of hoping to just like close that divide

Devonnie:

Yeah. A little more. Right.

Penn Cole:

And maybe like work my way into their brain and hopefully plant some seeds that when they then leave this world. and return to their everyday lives, they might look at certain things and certain groups of people with maybe a little bit more compassion and empathy for what they're going through. So that was and has always been a really big part of why I do the things that I do in my books.

Jordan:

I think, I

Devonnie:

shows.

Jordan:

yeah, I was just saying, it comes across

Devonnie:

comes across. Mm hmm.

Jordan:

thinking about all of those different aspects. And because I'm going through my reread, right? The first time I go through it, I'm just, Eating it up so fast because like the story is so exciting and, and I think about all these things, but I think about it and move on. And this time going through it, cause I read it the first time now I'm listening to it. And so I'm able to kind of sit with those bigger ideas even more. And it's like, I just, the way you tackle all of that is, is amazing. I think it's amazing and it's really well done and it's really thorough and It's so great to read.

Penn Cole:

I appreciate that. That's the stuff that keeps me up at night. I mean, when I'm writing, it's not, you know, the characters are going to do what they're going to do, but I, but the stuff that really plagues me as an author is like, am I handling these things sensitively, thoughtfully, you know, am I handling them respectfully? Um, I have a lot of privilege and so that creates blind spots and I want to make sure that I'm being really thoughtful about how I handle those and doing my research and um, you know, never being careless with anything. So it's something I, I'm not, I certainly not perfect and I'm sure there's plenty of valid criticism out there, but it's cert, it's something that I care a lot about doing right.

Devonnie:

Right. Yeah. I love it because fantasy also makes it super digestible for people and the fact that they're reading. So like, even though you're like, oh, I'm just reading a little book, those things aren't going to stay with you. Like you, unless you just read and go blank, like, and I know some people might actually read like that. Like they read and then go blank. But for the most part, I feel like. There's that it's going to linger even if you can't remember why you feel you're going to see something you're gonna be like, that's rubbing me the wrong way. And it'll start in this world that you just digested on like, you know, I'm just going to have read a cute little story. Um, so yeah, I think. the, the power of your words and the way you crafted the world. It's chef's kiss. Ooh, is that the first chef's kiss of the season? Yeah. Chef's

Jordan:

It is.

Penn Cole:

Thank

Devonnie:

Yeah. I love that. I love that. Yeah.

Jordan:

Oh, yeah. It's, I don't know, just so fun to read so we've talked about you've been through a lot and like, it feels like quickly and I'm sure it sometimes feels quickly. I'm sure for you sometimes feels like, you know, Been going through this for a while. When you started out writing, so during the pandemic and stuff, was it just like, I'm just gonna put this out there and see what happens, or did you say, if I'm going to do this, the goal is to get a trad deal eventually, or if not, like what was the tipping point in your journey that made you want to go into traditional publishing and accept that? I mean, I know money's always a thing, but like, to take, give your baby away and like, take that help,

Penn Cole:

Yeah, it was a, I mean, it was something I spent a lot of time thinking about before, during, and after I published. I, um, I always knew I wanted to self publish. I never really thought about going the trad route to begin with. I did my research and I looked into it and I just, I felt very strongly that I wanted to maintain control over my book and my publishing schedule. So, yeah. And, you know, every aspect of it, my covers everything. And of course the money aspect too, is like a huge difference between Indie and trad. And so I never, like I never, you know, queried with agents or put it on sub or anything like that. Um, I joined a ton of forums. That were really specifically for indie authors and I just learned as much as I possibly could about self publishing and I was really committed to that. I certainly was seeing authors getting picked up by Trad and I thought that might be interesting, but, uh, again, I really wanted the control and the money.

Devonnie:

Yeah Yeah

Penn Cole:

I wasn't so, I wasn't. Um, and so I was kind of chasing that really, um, what was most interesting to me from kind of a trad perspective was a lot of publishers were doing print only deals where they let the authors keep their ebook rights and in some cases, their audio book rights, and they only handled the print editions and not a lot of publishers were doing that when I got started, it was really just bloom, who was kind of the only publisher Maybe some other publishers were doing it like one off or super, super successful authors, but for the most part, it was really just Bloom that was doing it. And so that was kind of my goal, right? It was like, okay, well, I want, I want this print deal with Bloom. And, um, Foreshadowing, they did not want me. They turned me down. I love them. We support them. They're great. They're wonderful. We still love them. Um, but I, when they did turn me down, I thought, okay, that ship has sailed. Like, that dream has passed. I'm going to be indie and I'm going to commit to doing it well. Uh, and then, Mid last year, uh, Atria approached me and they are with Simon and Schuster, one of the biggest publishers in the world. And I, as far as I knew, they did not do print deals. And I told my, my agent was kind of like, will you consider it? Will you maybe give away all your rights? And I did a lot of soul searching. I talked to a lot of authors, um, very, very successful authors who had different kinds of deals. Some of them had print deals. Some of them didn't. And I walked away from that feeling very strongly that I should hold on to my rights. Uh, and so I told my agent, I only want a print deal. If they don't want to talk about a print deal, then I'm just going to stay indie. Well, they wanted to talk about a print deal. So that was, that was super unexpected. And, uh, I mean, truly it was like a dream deal for me. I could not have asked for a better setup because they have all the resources of, you know, a massive billion dollar publisher. Um, but I, I get to continue to be kind of a hybrid sort of half indie, half trad

Devonnie:

the half. Yeah,

Penn Cole:

and still hold on to control of my books and ultimately the decision about when to publish them, how to publish them rests with me. So I'm so grateful to have a really good partner in them. They get it. They understand the new landscape of publishing. They're super forward thinking. They're super supportive of me and my indie stuff. Um, you know, one of the examples is I promised everybody that if they bought an indie copy, right, of my books, that they would be able to complete their set and Atria was fully on board with like, okay, we want to make sure these people are able to complete their set too, so. So even though that's not really something that publishers do, they were like, we'll find a way to make it happen. Uh, so I'm just feel incredibly, incredibly lucky to have them in and be working with them on this kind of republishing.

Devonnie:

Yeah, well I love that you're like grateful and you feel lucky, but they saw the material.

Penn Cole:

I mean, listen, I'm making them a ton of money. Okay.

Devonnie:

yeah, okay, that's what I'm saying. They,

Penn Cole:

benefiting here.

Devonnie:

yes, exactly, like I'm so happy, you're so grateful, thank you, love that for you, bae, oh my gosh, such a kind woman. Atria's looking like, Gimme

Penn Cole:

all happy. It's a win win for everyone involved.

Devonnie:

beautiful relationship, so everyone's good at something. Yeah. But I love that.

Jordan:

I love, that's so interesting and I think it explains a lot about you. So, we love following you on socials because, and we talk about it all the time, like, I'll get in the group chat and I'll be like, Pen's on it again, she's calling him out, did you see

Penn Cole:

spicy pen.

Jordan:

I was like, oh! Like, we got on and I would go, Oh, okay. I was like, you know, she's over in Paris and she's had a whole day of like shutting down trolls on threads already and it's been so fun to watch. I get up, I'm like, who's pen calling out today? I love it! And so, but But between that and it's, but it's more like sticking up for people, not even just people, but also other authors and just the support that you put out into the world, and it explains so much, all the research you did and you, you know, It sounds like you utilized these communities so much from day one, to educate yourself, and I just love the community feel that you put out there and the support. It's, it's so refreshing to see and it's so fun to watch.

Penn Cole:

I'm trying to be better about calling in instead of calling out because when I was younger and angrier as, you know, any good, smart, young person is angry at all of the injustice in the world. And you want to call people out. You want to be outraged. And I think there's a place for that and that is an important voice. But as I've gotten older. And I've I've kind of been through that phase. I've said, you know, I think it's time to start calling in and saying, you know, instead of you're doing wrong, you're doing wrong, you're doing wrong. It's what can we do? Right? How do we fix this? How do we become more solution oriented and like focus on making things better for people instead of just being mad that they're bad?

Devonnie:

That

Jordan:

And,

Devonnie:

they

Jordan:

I think that encapsulates it a lot better than the way I said it because you, you, but it's because it is, because it's like an, it's more of what you do now that you say that it's more of an acknowledgement. Acknowledging it and here's what should be happening or here, if you're struggling with this, because this issue is happening. Here's what you can do, and here are the resources, and just being so transparent about your whole process has, I'm sure, helped a lot of authors, and,

Penn Cole:

I hope so.

Jordan:

yeah.

Devonnie:

Yeah.

Penn Cole:

like very big. I love talking shop. I love sharing data. I'm such a data girl.

Jordan:

Oh, I loved when you posted

Penn Cole:

I, I love just talking about numbers and trends and patterns and, you know, what's going on in the industry. Um, it's my favorite thing.

Devonnie:

Yeah, I love that. I love it. I love it all. I eat it up. My favorite though is actually when you troll, like that is

Penn Cole:

I do love to

Devonnie:

the discord, on threads, like I'm just, yeah, the trolling part, yeah, your bio on Instagram grinds my gears.

Penn Cole:

Uh,

Jordan:

discord is off the rails, like,

Penn Cole:

calmed down so much, like,

Devonnie:

Has

Penn Cole:

had a, yes, because I haven't had a book out in a while, it's gotten, like, relatively quiet for us. It's quiet for

Devonnie:

Yeah, yeah,

Penn Cole:

when I, I mean, when I was, like, at the end of 2023, when stuff was, like, really ramping up, I almost didn't sleep because it was just popping around the

Devonnie:

Oh, yeah, yeah. Messages, notifications. Yeah, I love it.

Penn Cole:

It's my favorite place. It's like my little home. So

Devonnie:

Yeah, yeah. And you're always in there, and again, your outreach, your community, bringing people in. Like, just Being involved with the people who are reading your work and also just kind of want to support you. I love that. That's like one of my favorite reasons for supporting you as an author is because you're looking back at your community and be like, Hi guys, I'm here. Let's chat instead of just isolating yourself. Like, here's some books. Go read it in a corner and leave me alone. You know,

Penn Cole:

yeah, I mean, I, for the authors who do that, I get it sometimes for your own mental health and to protect your creativity, you have to wall yourself off a little bit. Um, and that's, you know, certainly something I'm still trying to find a balance on. But for me, like, writing is my favorite part, but very close after that is like interacting with readers and, you know. Getting to know readers and just talking about books. So I, that like recharges me and refills me. And so I try and do at least a little bit of it every day if

Devonnie:

yeah. You're, you're, you're killing it. Speaking of readers getting to know you and you getting to know readers, drum roll please, because it is the time for this or that. All right. These are rapid fire. You, you can't even think about it. Your brain just needs to respond. I know, I know. It's scary,

Penn Cole:

Capricorn, so I

Devonnie:

Yeah.

Penn Cole:

I don't really fire anything off without thinking about it. But all right, let's see.

Devonnie:

deliberation.

Jordan:

I always say we don't, we don't yuck people's yums here,

Devonnie:

Mm hmm. We don't.

Jordan:

so, even if there are judgments, that'll stay in our head.

Penn Cole:

Got it. it.

Devonnie:

On Jordan, I am going to judge you openly and on camera. I just,

Jordan:

That's true.

Devonnie:

I don't know what Jordan's talking about. I am going to judge you. Um, just so you know what you're getting into. Alright. Let's ready. Okay, physical or e book.

Penn Cole:

book.

Devonnie:

Oh Surprising

Penn Cole:

live in like a shoe box in Europe. I have one inch of bookshelf space. Like, sorry, sorry. It's e books.

Devonnie:

I actually wasn't expecting that. I love that Okay, hot or ice drink.

Penn Cole:

Iced for sure. I'm from Texas. It's yummy.

Devonnie:

Okay. Yeah, that makes sense All right, which region of a Marion would you live in?

Penn Cole:

Umbras.

Jordan:

You

Penn Cole:

I

Devonnie:

What powers do you want?

Penn Cole:

I think healing, because even though they're not, I know, okay? They're not as flashy. They're not as flashy, but like you would never lose somebody you care about. You know what I mean? Like you, your

Devonnie:

judged prematurely. Yeah

Jordan:

Good life

Devonnie:

All right,

Penn Cole:

and you can make a lot of money too.

Devonnie:

true, okay, there we go

Penn Cole:

Okay. Okay.

Devonnie:

Sorry, I judged too fast. All right, this is the last one for me. Okay. All right two tropes Ready? One bed or who did this to you.

Penn Cole:

Who did this to you?

Devonnie:

Period. Because Luthor exists. Of course. Yeah.

Penn Cole:

mean.

Jordan:

Alright. Discrete cover or cartoon?

Penn Cole:

That's tough. Usually like the original Scandalous covers. Um, let's go with. I don't love either of them, if I'm being real honest.

Jordan:

That's fair!

Devonnie:

That's valid!

Penn Cole:

OK, we'll say cartoon. There's been some cute cartoon ones.

Devonnie:

That's

Jordan:

We could do like a scandalous, like,

Penn Cole:

Yeah, yeah, there you go.

Devonnie:

I hate them both.

Jordan:

yeah. Second chance or friends to lovers?

Penn Cole:

Okay. Second chance, but only if It's like based on a, like a misunderstanding or a, or a something happened. Not when they broke up because like one of them was a jerk to the other, you know what I mean? Like we're not looking, we're not looking back if they're jerks, right? But if, if he was actually in love with her, but she thought he hated her or something like that, I'm all in on that.

Jordan:

That, that is the correct answer, yes. Um,

Devonnie:

mm hmm,

Jordan:

quick, name your top three book boyfriends.

Penn Cole:

Aaron Warner from Shatter Me, for sure. Love him. Um.

Jordan:

You can say your own, it's okay.

Penn Cole:

Oh yeah, well, I mean, Luther, obviously. Okay,

Devonnie:

he was gonna be number one, and I was,

Penn Cole:

I didn't know. I didn't know. I would

Devonnie:

no,

Penn Cole:

And then, for number three, gosh, who do I love? Oh, Max from Daughter of No Worlds. Um,

Jordan:

Oh, yeah.

Devonnie:

Maxentarius?

Penn Cole:

Love him. He's so grumpy. I love a grumpy

Devonnie:

pissed off. He's so pissed off, but a puppy. A

Penn Cole:

the Lost Books of Jess did like the wet cat bracket of like MMCs and I was like he has to win, Jess, like this is wet, wet cat energy, a hundred percent, just looks miserable.

Devonnie:

Yeah.

Penn Cole:

All they want in life is to sit in front of a fire with like a warm tea and to be left alone,

Jordan:

just sit in his garden. No one come

Devonnie:

Yes. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Alright, that's a good top three. I am not judging those answers at all.

Jordan:

And just wait, just wait until you're done with, uh, ambers, amber vehicles, uh,

Penn Cole:

yeah, I can

Jordan:

you'll have Sam Kyle. Yeah,

Devonnie:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Penn Cole:

I can see this coming Yeah

Devonnie:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jordan:

and last one, Henri or Vance.

Penn Cole:

Henri obviously What kind of question is that?

Jordan:

we knew it!

Penn Cole:

One of them is the hero. The other one is the

Devonnie:

Oh! So this, we've concluded the podcast with Penn

Jordan:

And

Devonnie:

Pennn

Jordan:

So

Devonnie:

is being escorted away.

Penn Cole:

Okay, maybe hero is a stretch.

Jordan:

If you hear some sirens behind you, don't worry. you hear some

Devonnie:

no, just like a bit of a stretch. I mean,

Penn Cole:

I

Devonnie:

what?

Penn Cole:

well,

Devonnie:

had to throw that in there.

Penn Cole:

not over. Okay, so we'll

Devonnie:

Okay. Yeah, we will. Um, see if he's, okay. I'll wait.

Jordan:

Oh, but that just reminds me, seeing someone do a line of Henri merch, and you're, like, from, like

Penn Cole:

I buy it all. Like I have a whole closet of Henri merch. I, they, they make it for me because I alone will keep them in business.

Jordan:

I love you

Devonnie:

you alone. There, there cannot be another Henri apologist out there.

Penn Cole:

There's some, there's some and I bet I could convert you if I give you my whole spiel on Henri.

Jordan:

You

Penn Cole:

Um,

Jordan:

had a Henri POV, I'm sure we would be Team Henri. Like,

Devonnie:

Maybe, yeah, maybe if you understood him a little better. Right

Jordan:

look at pens even, like, maybe that's far.

Devonnie:

Yeah,

Penn Cole:

know. Maybe maybe you'll get that in uh, in a future book. I don't know. We'll see.

Devonnie:

Well, let me hold my tongue

Penn Cole:

Did you, I'm sorry, did you

Devonnie:

I don't jordan cannot she's like nope. Nope. Not for me. I'm gonna

Jordan:

too far, it went too far, it went too far, I'm sorry,

Devonnie:

I'm gonna i'ma hold back my Henri Hate just a little because you said that because I don't want to have to eat my words later. But um right

Penn Cole:

here's what I'll say, here's what I'll say briefly about Henri. I mean, I could talk about him for hours, he's my favorite. But, here's what I'll say briefly. We were talking earlier about doing the reread, right? And catching things that you don't catch on the first time you're on. I think on the first read. All you see Henri as is this guy who's in Luther's way, right? And, and maybe the boyfriend that we don't necessarily want her to end up with. Um, and that's fine. That's totally fair because next to Luther, like who compares? I'm sorry. But hopefully on the reread you can appreciate him for The other role that he plays in the story, which is kind of the voice of the mortals who have been oppressed, who have been punched down, who have been fighting for their liberation and their rights for so long and have not been heard, and they're angry. They are angry and they are willing to do whatever it takes to finally be heard. And I think if you look at Henri less as a love interest and more as, you know, a mortal and the voice of the mortals as a group, I think you can appreciate him a little bit differently.

Jordan:

Yeah, see, I do,

Penn Cole:

I

Devonnie:

I do now. Yeah.

Penn Cole:

told you.

Jordan:

see, while I was never team, obviously, I was never team Henri, as most of us are, I was, I didn't have the same, like, visceral reaction as I see some people do. But the reread, I can understand it, but when there are, there are a couple moves that he makes that I'm like, I don't,

Devonnie:

Strangle

Jordan:

You've known her your whole life, and you just, like, to, that's the border, and I, I get what you're saying, and I'm, but I'm just like,

Penn Cole:

we're seeing those things from Diem's POV, right? And she's seeing what she wants to see and not seeing what she doesn't want to see. Uh, and we're not necessarily seeing his motivations because neither of them are being super honest with the other about what they're up to and why they're doing it. And so I think if you're sitting in his shoes and you see this person who was, Your most loyal friend who grew up with you, you two have been on the same page about these evil descendants your entire lives. And now all of a sudden she's cuddling up to them, she's wearing their clothes and their jewelry, and she's only hanging out with them and not hanging out with any of her mortal friends anymore. You might feel betrayed and angry as well. Is all I'm saying.

Devonnie:

yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm currently pissed off because now I'm seeing it. Okay. Right. I am understanding because you're right the entire time Henri has been a annoying roadblock to Luther, but also I've felt like he's been this box that has been trying to contain Diem, but you're like, you're right. I don't have the full picture and I'm FUMING!

Jordan:

she ghosts him, if you really think about the timeline, once

Penn Cole:

she abandons him.

Jordan:

him, she doesn't even send him a letter,

Penn Cole:

Yeah.

Jordan:

a letter, she go, like, it's,

Penn Cole:

Yeah.

Devonnie:

Oh no.

Penn Cole:

that. He feels abandoned. He feels betrayed. And if you, you know, if you kind of get into heat in particular, there's a conversation that they have in heat and he kind of says that, you know what I mean? She's upset because he's acting like she's dead now that she's a descendant, but is it really about that? Or is that she's dead to him because she left him behind? Yeah. And,

Devonnie:

Oh no!

Penn Cole:

I mean, I, this is my baby. I love him. I feel bad for him. I think when it comes to Diem and Henri, they don't, there's not one that's right or wrong. I think they both made mistakes. They both had good intentions. They both screwed up and they're both trying their best. As two young people who are, you know, learning, they're each other's kind of first loves. And so. Those, you know, don't, they're messy sometimes.

Devonnie:

Yeah, they're just navigating the new world that they've like, found themselves in, so. Good grief. Not me liking Henri. Ugh. Scrub that from the

Penn Cole:

I have some Henri merch.

Jordan:

No, that's there forever.

Devonnie:

Too far! Too far! Not Henri!

Penn Cole:

code Henri10 for 10 percent off.

Jordan:

I am going to, now I know what I'm getting Dev for her birthday this year.

Penn Cole:

Perfect.

Jordan:

you. Yeah, I can, I can make stuff on my Cricut. Perfect. I can make our own Henri merch and I'll just, it'll be perfect.

Devonnie:

Do not do that. I don't know if I'm there yet. I'm understanding. Okay? I don't know if I'm Team Henri yet. I don't know if I'm joining Pen yet. But! I am very understanding. I, I, like now when I do my next reread, I'll actually look at, look at him like that. I'll, I'll try to see that and see how that makes me feel. Um, but yeah. Okay. So

Penn Cole:

you're ready to, to mea culpa.

Devonnie:

I'm so happy for me that I'll have that. That supports. Aren't you just a supportive queen? Um, okay. So, is there a specific author that got you hooked on fantasy or a specific book? Or, I know some people it even sparks from like a TV show as a child and then you're like, okay, I'm in this world.

Penn Cole:

No, it's definitely a very, like a book that stayed with me just at a core level, which is Kushiel's Dart by Jacqueline Carey. It is like 25 years old now. Uh, I read it when I was a teenager and, um, it was, um, It was very, it was unlike anything I'd ever read. I always read fantasy and it was especially then very male dominated. Uh, you know, every book on the shelf pretty much was by a male author featuring a male lead, uh, you know, with men on the cover. If there was a woman, she was like scantily clad and just kind of like, Oh, you know, the damsel in distress who was there for the sex scenes and then kind of pushed aside. And I just.

Jordan:

sex scenes, not very

Penn Cole:

And not good, right? Not boobing boobily. Like, no,

Devonnie:

Yeah.

Penn Cole:

not. We don't, we don't play with that. And so I wasn't, I loved the aspect of fantasy that was kind of fantastical and magic and dragons and these big epic adventures that people were going on. But I, I wish that I saw more women in them and especially women in roles that weren't relegated to love interest or villain. Um, you know, like. Catty, evil, manipulative woman. That was kind of it. And so that was the first book I remember reading that was written by a woman, had a female main character. There were a ton of strong women in there. Some of them were good. Some of them were bad. It focused on issues that were really important to women like bodily autonomy and consent and sexual liberation. Um, It was, I mean, it's very sexy, definitely very sexy. There's a beautiful romance, absolutely stunning romance at the heart of it. Um, and I thought, Oh my gosh, like this, where is this kind of book? I want a thousand more of this book, you know? And at the time there wasn't a thousand of that kind of book. There were just a very small handful of authors doing it. Um, in particular, because. There was only a couple of publishers were publishing fantasy and it was all male editorial staffs and, you know, they were choosing books that appealed to men. And so just these very few women were slipping through. And that is kind of when I thought this is what I want to write. This is what I want to read. This is my genre. Like, I'm a romantic. We didn't have that name for it back then, but I've been a romantic early for 20 years.

Devonnie:

yeah,

Penn Cole:

And it, it never left me that, that belief that this should be a bigger thing. And then when Avatar kind of blew up over the pandemic, I think it, it shined a much bigger light on romanticy and people realize there is fantasy out there that really caters more to a female audience. Um, and tells our stories and that was when I knew like, it's time to strike, it's time to

Devonnie:

yeah, this is now, yeah,

Penn Cole:

I always wanted to write it, but that was when I thought I can write this and actually have a career doing it.

Devonnie:

aww, I need to look at you, I love that, makes me happy,

Penn Cole:

Young

Jordan:

going to get us.

Penn Cole:

happy.

Jordan:

I'm gonna get us pom poms because I feel like we're always Yes, so we need to I think that needs to be

Devonnie:

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Jordan:

like I could just picture the pom poms. Yeah um Yeah, I love that. Uh, you had that moment and now i'm gonna have to look that book up because

Devonnie:

Yeah, I know me too, right? I like I want

Penn Cole:

so it was a trilogy, Kushiel's Dart, I forget what the next two are called, um, but then actually just last August in 2024, because romanticy kind of got big again, she actually released a new book, which is Kushiel's Dart from the male love interest POV. So which is fantastic, I know, so it's cool to see even these kind of older books get a resurgence and get new

Devonnie:

Right, right because we have new readers who are looking specifically for that. I love that. That makes me happy

Jordan:

Um, do you have favorites from this last year? What are a few of your top

Penn Cole:

I didn't do a ton of reading last year because I was in drafting mode the entire year, the

Devonnie:

Yeah

Penn Cole:

Um, the ones that I, that really stood out to me were, I, I didn't read a ton in my genre especially. Especially, um, because I try not to read fantasy while I'm writing fantasy or else lines can get crossed. Uh, but Witch Collector by Shura Sawiks is, was really, I know, I know, and she's just phenomenal. I love her as a human being, so it was great when her book was also really good.

Devonnie:

Yes.

Penn Cole:

when those two things match up. Uh, and then kind of outside of that, I read a lot of Romance like rom coms and contemporary romance and this one I was so unexpected and I loved it. It's called That Time I Got Drunk and Yeeted a Love Potion at a Werewolf by Kimberly Lemming.

Jordan:

Yeah.

Penn Cole:

All of her books have like the funniest titles and like the cutest covers and like I feel like people discredit them because they look silly, right? They look like they would be weirder, sillier, fluff. And they're not! They're like these beautiful stories and these amazing characters. And like, ugh, I just adore them.

Devonnie:

See, I just knew we were besties. And you know, so the craziest thing actually, I just have to do this side note is that, so the reason I even know you exist in the world as a person is my other best friend, Glenn, um, who I think has probably messaged you a couple of times as well, but she's the one who told me, Hey, This author, I just read the series. You have to read it. And Sharisa Weeks is also her favorite, author and that The Witch Collector series. So I know Glenn, if you're listening, she's for us. Pen is for us. Do you hear that? Yeah. We love her. Yep.

Jordan:

you hear it? Can you hear it? The future Glenn is squealing right now and so excited. I

Devonnie:

is screaming. I bet you she's screaming listening to this right now. Okay. And then, so have you met any of your favorite authors? Like are there authors who you've been like, Oh, I love their work or I've read one of their books and then you've met them in real life?

Penn Cole:

I've only done one event, so I've only had a chance to meet a few of them. Now I've talked to a lot of them online, which is crazy to me because as a reader, you know, I had, I've fangirled over so many of these people and now I'm like, DMs chatting with them about

Devonnie:

Not sliding Diems.

Penn Cole:

Absolutely mind blowing to me. Um, I actually recently had one of them who I liked I'm obsessed with. I love her books and I mean I've read everything she's written. Who I, I mentioned to in a comment somewhere like, oh you should read this book by this person. And she responded, she was like, you've read my books? Oh my god, like you, Penn Coles read my books. I was like, what? It was like such a funny moment because I feel like this nobody, right? This just reader who's obsessed with these authors and that's not how they perceive me anymore. Um, So that was a kind of a really fun moment, but I think the only people, I mean, I met a ton of people at Romantic Con Orlando. Um, I met Charissa, which was great. I met LJ Andrews, who if you haven't chatted with her, she's so funny. She, everything she says cracked me up. She is low key hilarious. Um, who else? There were so many really cool people at that con that I got to meet and I'm really excited about this year because especially Romanticist Con LA is like stacked with incredible, incredible authors. So I'm, I'm pumped about that.

Devonnie:

You'll meet some new people. That's exciting. Yeah. That's really exciting. I love that for you.

Jordan:

Yeah. Back to your own work. We talk a lot and we hear a lot about burn where, and we know that there is stuff written, obviously we got an exclusive quote, but where is burn in Its

Penn Cole:

So I don't want to say too much because I, I worry about making people think it's going to be, I worry about giving people any kind of false impression about when it's going to release, and I don't want to disappoint anyone because we've already had to delay it so much. I don't want to do it again. Um, I will say it is very substantially complete, not complete, but like we're very close. Um, and we have a, Release date tentatively internally that we're working to hit. I don't know if it's going to happen or not. Um, but hopefully this year, hopefully

Devonnie:

Oh, okay, hopefully, okay.

Penn Cole:

but I, there's just, there's so many, especially now with like the trad deal, there's so many pieces that have to be in place in order to say, This date

Devonnie:

This

Penn Cole:

and it will not change because it's no longer just me, right? There's like a team of

Jordan:

Mm hmm.

Penn Cole:

Um, and so I have to get sign off from so many different people to say, yes, we can be ready by this date. And that, um, they're all kind of waiting on me right now for me to say the book is final, final, final, no more changes ready to go. And as soon as I do that, it's completely my fault. Nobody else is.

Jordan:

No, and I

Penn Cole:

soon as I do that, then they all start doing their jobs.

Jordan:

yeah, I feel like a lot of fans and readers don't realize That it's not just you finish writing the story and put it out. I don't think a lot of people realize the process and all the steps that have to happen beyond just getting the original story on page, like the edits and the going back and then like formatting and all these different steps. I don't think people really understand what all is involved. And so

Penn Cole:

a long, long

Jordan:

making, making

Penn Cole:

And sometimes it can go quickly, like with Spark it went, well it didn't go quickly, it was like two years, but it, because it was a book one, I could, I had a lot more freedom to just do whatever, you know, and get it out there. This is the last chance I have with these characters, with this world. I mean, it is done after this. It is done done. So, I mean, maybe there will be a spinoff in the future, but it won't be. It won't be like these main characters, right? I want them to have, if they live, I want them to have peace. So,

Devonnie:

bad if they live

Penn Cole:

listen, okay? It's a war. Everybody can't

Jordan:

I love you so much. I keep saying it, but this is like my, I love it.

Devonnie:

I was so annoyed

Penn Cole:

it's war, baby. I

Jordan:

kinds of readers.

Penn Cole:

blood's gotta be shed.

Devonnie:

So I okay I totally understand like people being well I don't understand people being jerks online about the book not being released that I will understand but I get it because that cliffhanger

Penn Cole:

I know. I did this to myself. I

Devonnie:

You did it to yourself The cliffhanger, it's, it's been tearing me up since I read it, but number two, you also just pretty much answered another question I had, which was like, what would be next after this? Like, I didn't know if you would add another book at the end or like say, Oh yeah, two more books or like three more books. So the fact that this is going to be the

Penn Cole:

no.

Jordan:

I love that you're doing that though. I love that you're doing that and you're

Devonnie:

true. Yeah,

Jordan:

To have a sense of just finality, I think, without trying to be like, Here's a little more. Here's a little more. Oh, surprise! Here's more! Like, I just love the closing of that

Penn Cole:

Yeah, I get why authors do that, kind of stay in one world or with one group of characters for a long time, but I think Creatively that's a box, you know, and I that I kind of want to break out of like I've done a lot with this world And this magic system and all that and I kind of am ready to like do something different and also just like from a practical Business point, the, the more books you have in a world, the harder it is for new readers, the more intimidating it is for new readers to enter into that, you know, if they need to read, you know, two trilogies and then a duology and then two standalones and a prequel. It, it, it's too much sometimes for a lot of people. And so I think it's nice to have a lot of different entry points into your, you know, your writing so that, new people who Maybe didn't want to or didn't have the time to read like a four book series before can start fresh with me

Devonnie:

Yeah. And feel like. I can actually finish this. I can do this. It's not too intimidating.

Penn Cole:

Yeah, and feel like they're getting a full story and not like, oh, well, I'm missing things because I didn't read that first series.

Devonnie:

Right.

Jordan:

As

Devonnie:

that you're taking so long with or with burn, because like, I feel like you're probably going to be able to wrap it up so nicely for us and

Penn Cole:

trying so hard.

Devonnie:

guess apparently

Penn Cole:

I have dug myself. I mean I have dug myself into a million graves because I had all these complex plot lines and all these subplots and every, every single Almost every named character, right? Every kind of major character has their own plotline, has their own arc. And that makes it fun to read in the books, because they get very fleshed out. It's a nightmare to write at the

Devonnie:

Yeah.

Penn Cole:

they all have to resolve, and like, not

Devonnie:

You have to go back.

Penn Cole:

pages.

Devonnie:

Right. Right. Or, I mean, to tell you the truth, I don't

Penn Cole:

Listen.

Devonnie:

thousand. I'm not going to lie. Okay. I ate up that 1000 page book. Like how fast, how fast did I, I flew through that. So

Penn Cole:

not going to be much shorter, so

Devonnie:

yeah.

Penn Cole:

you're

Devonnie:

Love to hear it. Yeah.

Jordan:

I'm so excited. And now I have all these theories about who's not gonna make it, and that's really exciting for me. Just because I feel like, who, who would be, like,

Devonnie:

Henri's

Jordan:

is gonna be done? I don't think so. I think he's gonna

Devonnie:

Yeah, I know. Yep, I think he's gonna be happy.

Jordan:

his new replacement healer, and

Devonnie:

Mm hmm. I forgot about her.

Jordan:

the person who took her job, the person who took her job,

Penn Cole:

Lana's

Devonnie:

And then took her man. Is she innocent? She's a spy.

Jordan:

She, no, listen, listen, on

Penn Cole:

all spies. They're all spies.

Devonnie:

ha.

Jordan:

Dev, on the reread, she asks, Diem, Oh, are you still engaged to Henri? Like

Devonnie:

right nosy

Jordan:

And I'm

Devonnie:

right nosy. Why are you

Jordan:

something was going on

Devonnie:

Yeah

Penn Cole:

Lana was like, uh oh. I was writing that knowing what I was knowing. I was like, oh no, Lana's like, oh shit.

Devonnie:

whatever dad yeah, oh

Penn Cole:

still together.

Devonnie:

Yeah, right Right, exactly. Henri, little dirty dog. And Lana, they deserve each other. I know,

Penn Cole:

but it's not like Diem was, let's remember what Diem was up to during

Devonnie:

I know, I know, I know. Let me, but it's Luther. I mean, okay,

Penn Cole:

Lutherkiss, post

Jordan:

hey. Don't be an Apollo. Don't.

Penn Cole:

Okay,

Devonnie:

he's just magic. There's something magical, okay. I, my, my sister Diem, She was fighting for her life with that man. She couldn't

Penn Cole:

I know,

Devonnie:

She couldn't resist him. He was

Penn Cole:

but she was, she was the first of the two of them

Devonnie:

You're right.

Penn Cole:

Okay. So

Devonnie:

You're right. You're

Penn Cole:

we support women's wrongs, but

Devonnie:

We do.

Penn Cole:

I mean,

Devonnie:

You're right. You're right. Wow, Henri. Might be a good guy.

Penn Cole:

I mean, he's at least no worse.

Devonnie:

Yeah, he's no worse than Diem you're right no because you're right for everything that Diem was doing He was like they were matching each other essentially and just being lost in

Jordan:

and that's why she was not mad at Henri at the, in the end. When she found out with them together. Sorry, spoiler. When,

Penn Cole:

Oh yeah. I think that ship has sailed.

Devonnie:

Yeah

Penn Cole:

Oops.

Jordan:

anyways, but that's why she couldn't fault him for things. Right? Because she, she felt, she felt a sense of relief. Like, I was going through this, you did the same,

Penn Cole:

it's like when you break up with somebody, even if you dumped them, right? And even if you know you don't want to be with them, when you see them with somebody new, you have that feeling of like, Hmm, you

Devonnie:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah

Penn Cole:

absolutely don't want to be in that person's

Devonnie:

Right, right. The ship has sailed. Yeah,

Penn Cole:

still that feeling of like, oh, so I think she had that sense of like, it's hard to see the man that I once cared about and saw myself with, with somebody else, but then I don't want to be there. And actually I have something better.

Jordan:

Yeah. And she felt,

Devonnie:

so

Jordan:

but I feel like, tell me if I'm wrong, a little bit of part of her felt validated in her own actions

Penn Cole:

Oh, 1, 000%. 1,

Devonnie:

chomped on, she's like, oh, he's doing that? Okay, good. Then me and, you know, yeah, for sure. There was some

Penn Cole:

she'd been beating herself up. Like, let's remember what she was up to before that moment. There were, there were

Devonnie:

Things. Yeah, there were things. Without spoilers. Exactly.

Penn Cole:

been beating herself up a little bit over it. And I think that was like the releasing of the guilt.

Devonnie:

Yeah. For her. Okay. All right. I'm gonna hold my tongue on Henri. Not too much on Henri, Dev. In 2025, giving Henri grace.

Jordan:

give him space to be himself. Just, you don't have to

Devonnie:

not gonna hate him. I'm not gonna. Yeah. I'm gonna just see. We're gonna see how this all ends. Okay. So we'll just have to wait and see how Penn decides to wrap up Henri's story and everyone else's story. And we're really excited for the new book. So are there. Is there anything else you want to, did you want to read another quote? Did you, did you have something else

Penn Cole:

up the document here

Devonnie:

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just start from the beginning actually. Yeah, yeah.

Penn Cole:

I will say the first, the first three chapters are on my website. So

Devonnie:

They are.

Penn Cole:

wants a little sneak preview, you can get it at penncole. com slash newsletter and you can read both the bonus chapter from Glow and then the three preview chapters from Burn. Uh, so once you finish heat, go check them out.

Devonnie:

Yeah. Are there any, share your socials with us. We'll have them linked in the episode description and stuff, but for our listeners, where can they find you and connect with you and join this amazing community?

Penn Cole:

Sure. I am at author Penn Cole on all of the social media platforms. my website is penncole. com. I'm most active on Instagram and on my discord, which is linked on my website and on my Instagram bio. it's an open reader group for anybody who wants to join. It is chaos. It is madness. It's slightly a cult, but, um, you know, in a fun way,

Devonnie:

We're all happy to be there though. We're happy to be there. We're all happy to be there. Mm hmm.

Jordan:

the overlord every

Devonnie:

Yeah.

Penn Cole:

without the death or the sex scandals or any of

Devonnie:

Yeah. Yeah. There are sometimes penises,

Penn Cole:

There's lots of

Devonnie:

gonna Yeah.

Penn Cole:

for work, that

Jordan:

there are pets. There are pet pictures if you're into that. So,

Penn Cole:

Yes. It's

Devonnie:

Yeah. Join.

Penn Cole:

This is a great

Devonnie:

us over there. You right?

Penn Cole:

and pets

Devonnie:

Yeah.

Penn Cole:

pretty much sums us up over there at pen pals.

Devonnie:

Yep. Love it.

Jordan:

thank you so much for joining. Like this has been so fun and we're so honored to have you on. So thank you and thank you everyone for listening to us ramble. about and with Penn Cole. If you're looking for more Romance Recs, be sure to follow us on Instagram and threads and follow us or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can find our favorite book recs from our episodes as well as behind the scenes content. Again, that's at Romance Recs Pod, so be sure to give us a follow and we'll be back in a couple weeks. Bye!

Penn Cole:

for having me.

Devonnie:

Bye.